Anne Kilkenny’s Email about Sarah Palin (Photos)
The following is the text of the email letter about Sarah Palin, started by Ann Kilkenny, with comments afterwards. Reports abound, of how Anne did not intend to become ‘famous’ and this is not why whe did this; that Anne originally sent this mail only to her family and close friends. I encourage you to read the comments at the end of the mail and then ask yourself how seriously you can (or should) take this.
Kilkenny wrote:
ABOUT SARAH PALIN
I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992. Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her
father was my child’s favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the
residents of the city.
She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and won’t vote for her can’t quit smiling when talking about her because she is a “babe”. [1]
It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents for seven months. [2]
She is “pro-life’. She recently gave birth to a Down’s Syndrome baby.[3] There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.
She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.
She is savvy. She doesn’t take positions; she just “puts things out there” and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.
Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything like that of native Alaskans.
Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.
She’s smart.
Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000 (at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about 670,000 residents.
During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign.
Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation (1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they benefited residents.
The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was still in litigation 7 yrs later–to the delight of the lawyers involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.
While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office redecorated more than once.
These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.
As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she
proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.
In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today’s surplus, borrow for needs.
She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the basis of who proposed them.
While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day. [4]
Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of “old boys”. Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. [5] At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal–loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the
case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).
As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated” her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska’s top cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure and she had every legal right to fire him, but it’s pretty clear that an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn’t fire her sister’s ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen
contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew
her support.
She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.
Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything publicly about her.
When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party) engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit, exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined). [6]
As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to
nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.
As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative
action restored most of these projects–which had been vetoed simply because she was not aware of their importance–but with the unobservant she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.
She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a
fiscal conservative.
Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah’s mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.
As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march to the beat of her drum.
Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state
initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s
lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar bears as threatened species.
McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a heartbeat away from being President.
There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more knowledgeable and experienced than she.
However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are regretting it.
CLAIM VS FACT
• “Hockey mom”: true for a few years
• “PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementaryschool, not since
• “NRA supporter”: absolutely true
• social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships (said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
• pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to promote it.
• “Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life legislation
• “Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska. No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city administrator to run town of about 5,000.
• political maverick: not at all
• gutsy: absolutely!
• open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at explaining actions.
• has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
• ”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
• fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
• pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built streets to early 20th century standards.
• pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on residents
• pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city government in Wasilla’s history.
• pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim that she is pro-labor/pro-union.
WHY AM I WRITING THIS?
First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny +
Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local government, education, and PTA/parent organizations. [7]
Secondly, I’ve always operated in the belief that “Bad things happen when good people stay silent”. Few people know as much as I do because few have gone to as many City Council meetings.
Third, I am just a housewife. I don’t have a job she can bump me out of. I don’t belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will
cost me somehow in the future: that’s life. [8]
Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100 or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah’s attempt at censorship.
Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to say anything because they were somehow vulnerable. [9]
CAVEATS
I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor) from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of
Wasilla, and I can’t recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible for a private person to get any info out of City Hall–they are
swamped. So I can’t verify my numbers. [10]
You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the population of Wasilla, ranging from my “about 5,000″, up to 9,000. The day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the
current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was 5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to 2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.
Anne Kilkenny
August 31, 2008
COMMENTS:
“Everybody likes her because she’s a real nice person. She’s always been nice to me and everyone in town,” Kilkenny told CNN.com. “I wrote my message in the spirit of providing complete and accurate information. I’m not angry or jealous.”
Hmmm. Really? Not angry or jealous? I have to say… reading the email, it certainly does sound in places, a bit on the jealous side. Remarks about how Tod Palin’s job is “sought-after” for it’s “high pay” and how he is able to fish during the summer seem to be peppered with a bit of the green spice shaker when the backhanded “Nor has her life-style ever been anything like that of native Alaskans” is taken into account.
[1] How about remarks about her being popular, or a babe? Does Kilkenny not realize that by painting men as though they have empty-headed grins because of her looks, Kilkenny herself is showing her green… and denigrating countless men at the same time? I suggest that none of these men have ever really told Kilkenny any such things, that this is a perception she holds based on her obvious issues with Palin’s looks.
Do Kilkenny’s own looks have something to do with comments like these? Being female, I venture to say that they do. Sadly, sometimes women berate and be unkind to each other because they are jealous of and/or feel threatened by another woman who might be more attractive and/or more successful than they are. Women who don’t or won’t admit this happens are liars. Kilkenny may ’say’ she’s not jealous, but her words show otherwise. To the men of Alaska, I apologize for Kilkenny’s blanket derogatory statements regarding your reasons for being pleased with Palin. Other women out there are sure it’s about more than her being a ‘babe’.
As a woman, it pleases me to see another woman succeed and particularly if she is good looking. It’s about time people understood that being attractive does not automatically mean one is stupid.
[2] I would dare to ask how someone who alleges to be hated by Palin, would think she would have first-hand knowledge of how long Palin “hid” her pregnancy from family? I doubt Palin’s family is going to be divulging such information to someone who has claimed to be her enemy.
[3] It seems to me, anyone who is legitimately not angry or jealous, would’ve worded this statement “She recently gave birth to a baby named Trig, who happens to have Down’s Syndrome” not “She recently gave birth to a Down’s Syndrome baby”. Trig is a person first. Thanks. Not angry? Sure. If you say so.
[4] “People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.” Again Kilkenny, how would you know this? I doubt if you (as a person on her ‘enemies list’) would even be in the position for her to be confiding these things to you. I imagine, this being on her ‘enemies list’ is aperception you might have, not necessarily a fact.
[5] Here’s a bit of a newsflash. The firing of upper level positions after an election or a buyout, takeover, etc. is rather typical. It feels pretty shitty if you’re the one fired, but it’s nothing new. Say a well-known hotel in a big city changes hands. The first thing that usually happens is that the upper management is released and new management selected by the new owners is brought in. It sucks… but it happens all over. Why? Because new “owners” like new “governement” like to know that the people in charge are loyal to them and not someone else. I realize Kilkenny is admittedly “just a housewife” but if she plans on trying to “inform” the public because she believes bad things happen when good people stay silent, she should at least try to know what she’s talking about from a point of view other than “just a housewife”.
[6] Again, here’s a situation where others felt Palin was making a sacrifice which might not do herself any favours, but Kilkenny thinks she knows the real story and the real reason why Palin did it. Evidence given by Kilkenny to prove Palin’s choice was a selfish one? Kilkenny said she was “told” these things. No source, nothing substantial to back it up… just Kilkenny’s own word to go on.
[7] In media reports, Kilkenny has been painted as someone who wasn’t looking for all this attention, who really only intended to help family and friends know more about Sarah Palin.
Kilkenny is now a significant voice in the national discussion of the presidential election, but she began with a modest goal. She merely wanted to answer out-of-town friends who asked: “You’re from Wasilla, what’s Sarah Palin like?”
This is a blatant misrepresentation of Kilkenny and anyone with a lick of common sense should be able to see that. In her message, Kilkenny instructs readers to google her name to find out who she really is. Clearly, Kilkenny intended the email to reach far beyond her family and friends.
Today, Kilkenny’s words, the observations of a Wasilla, Alaska, homemaker who remembers Gov. Sarah Palin when she was mayor, have circled the globe. The letter is posted on a thousand Web sites. It’s being cited in countless blogs and e-mails.
Kilkenny, 57, has been quoted on the front page of the New York Times. She has been interviewed by the Los Angeles Times, the San Francisco Chronicle, four British papers, L’Express from France and Der Speigel from Germany, to name just a few. She has gone on TV with ABC and NBC and CNN, which spent four hours at her house yesterday. She has spoken with National Public Radio.
Let’s just be honest here. Kilkenny may say she did this for honorable reasons, that she isn’t angry or jealous… but methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Kilkenny wears the green as naturally as that land that bears the same name. She’s just a tad early for St. Patty’s day, so I’d be guessing it’s because she’s just darn jealous.
[8] Nothing like trying to win the “poor me, little David against big Goliath” vote. Doesn’t cut it for me. In my world, there’s no such thing as “just a housewife.” Some of the most remarkable things have been accomplished by people who were “just a regular person” and it’s a poor card to play to try win me over.
[9] Again, just as with the derogatory reference to men earlier in her letter, in one little sentence, Kilkenny demeans an entire town. Really? In the entire town there is not one other person not under Palin’s power… not one other person with the guts or courage to say something other than Kilkenny? My my my. If I were Kilkenny, now that she’s painted every man in town as a stupid idiot who might not support Palin but hasn’t the brains to see past Palin’s good looks (Isn’t the equivalent of saying that they all think with their penises?) and painted every other person in town as being either gutless or under Palin’s power/influence, I’d be a little nervous to turn my back on anyone.
Sheesh.
What a grandiose sense of herself Kilkenny has, and for some reason… (unexplained since she professes not to be angry or jealous) Kilkenny chooses to paint Palin as having power over every single person in town except herself. I’m sure Palin herself is surprised at how much power she has. Goodness!
[10] Finally, I remind you once more, that Kilkenny herself is quoted as saying,
“I wrote my message in the spirit of providing complete and accurate information. I’m not angry or jealous.”
yet she absolves herself from information that may not in fact be complete and/or accurate by pulling out the “I’m just a housewife” card again and making excuses for why her information might not be accurate.
I’ll reply again, that this pathetic excuse does not cut it! If anything was ever a testament to someone shouting, “look at me, I am angry and I am jealous and I am going to use the internet to my advantage to make you suffer” it is this.
My intent for writing this? I have two.
1. Stuff like this really bugs me. If you want a deeper explanation of that, post a comment and ask me about it.
2. I’m a blogger. I, like other bloggers, pay attention to what’s going on in the news (whether political, entertainment or health news (I rarely write about tech stuff or fine arts) and write about it to get traffic. Hits. Yes. Why blog if you don’t want anyone to read you?
So that fraccers, is my interest.
I admittedly don’t know enough about Sarah Palin yet and so am not defending her for any other reason than this seems to be the act of someone jealous and angry. It annoys me that some people abuse the wonder of the internet to cause harm to others because they are angry and/or jealous of them. I love the internet, and it makes me angry that the misuse of it by some creates fear about it in so many others.
I may find later, that I can’t stand her (Palin) any more than Kilkenny. I reserve my right to choose to like her or dislike her based on what comes out about her…
…provided what comes out isn’t a load of shit based on someone who is blatantly jealous and out to get her.
I try do the same for others too.
It’s what makes me, me.
Hey… maybe I should run for something?
Alas… I am a Canadian and thus, all the rest of the world would be deprived of me anyway. 
[Quotes from CNN, tampabay.com and Stupid Celebrities Gossip. A disclaimer (about Kilkenny) at the last site echos my own personal sentiment. It read, "Keep in mind she is some housewife from Wasilla, Alaska that may just be jealous of Sarah Palin." ]
Posted on September 5th, 2008 by fracas
Filed under: Flotsam
Hi,
I’m just getting started with my new blog. Would you want to exchange links on our blog-rolls?
BTW - I’m up to about 100 visitors per day.
I believe your responce was wonderfully unbiased and that was exactly how i felt when I stumble,however unfortunately on to this publication of this bitter and jealous version of a housewife. lol. I also feel that if even some of these accusations were founded that the obama campaign would have used them to there full extent considering how unexperienced they claim she is.
Sue - Hi there. My ‘flaunt’ page might interest you. Check over there and leave a comment if you’re interested. It’s a notch up from just a link because you get to actually tell people about your site.
Ashley - Thanks Ashley. Her letter seems so bitter and jealous it’s too bad the media is willing to give her 15 minutes of fame for it all. I guess they were having such a hard time finding anyone in her town who did have bad things to say about her so they’re willing to use whatever they can get. I’d like to hear more real stuff about her to make up my mind, and I can do without all the jealous boo hoo’ing because she’s attractive. When experience is held up side by side, the reality is that she has more than Obama… and she’s not even the Presidential candidate.
We can only hope that like you, Fracas, Ashley and Sue are Canadian and, thus, unable to vote to put this ticket in the White House. The accusations regarding her attempts to dismiss the city librarian are true. (The Librarian, for heaven’s sake!) She did have to back off on that one. Aren’t her beliefs on creationism, global warming and women’s right to choose enough to put you off? As for family values, there is nothing like throwing your family under the bus to promote your career to demonstrate your true devotion to their well-being.
Experience? Obviously no one here has taken the trouble to look at Obama’s accomplishments in Chicago or his ethics reform work both in Illinois and in the Senate. Oh, well. I guess I’m just jealous of Sarah.
Original info on Wasilla librarian situation - - Anchorage Daily News - 9/4/08
(No evidence of actual banning of books during her tenure.)
Foes back off on recall - Anchorage Daily News, 2/11/97 (and 9/2/08)
Librarian retains job upon agreement to merge library and museum operations
- Anchorage Daily News - 2/1/97 (and 8/29/08)
Cagey -
”The accusations regarding her attempts to dismiss the city librarian are true.”
From the articles you cited:
“Palin herself, questioned at the time, called her inquiries rhetorical and simply part of a policy discussion with a department head “about understanding and following administration agendas,” according to the Frontiersman article.”
Were any books censored banned? June Pinell-Stephens, chairwoman of the Alaska Library Association’s Intellectual Freedom Committee since 1984, checked her files Wednesday and came up empty-handed.”
I’d hardly call that a definitive truth. Seems to me, from reading the stories… that this is a she said - she said kind of situation. Palin and the Librarian each view the situation how they perceive it. I would expect that if Palin was investigated for those accusations and none held up… it’s a little more grey than you or Kilkenny claim.
On to the next claim you make. Apparently then, according to you, if it is best that I, Ashley and Sue (even though Sue made no statement about who she supports and was blindly and unfairly lumped into the same category as Ashley and I) cannot vote, it would then follow that you would think it would be better for your country if anyone who shares Palin’s views on creationism, global warming and women’s ‘rights’ didn’t vote either? Nevermind that nowhere did I state that I agree with Palin’s views on global warming or creationism… and I suspect you might not share every exact same belief as Obama down to every last nuance… but might still vote for him. You make a leap of judgement about me, Ashley and Sue… who gave no opinion at all.
Hmm. I thought the idea of your country was that everyone would, should and could vote… even if they don’t share Cagey’s opinions. Guess I was wrong about that. I’ll have to ask some of my other American (Conservative) readers if they also agree that unless people agree with you Cagey, that it’s better off for the country if they don’t vote. Rofl.
About the bus? I must’ve missed that story because I don’t recall reading where she threw her family under a bus. Perhaps you could elaborate on that one for me?
Obama’s experience in Chicago? Are you serious? You do realize that there are people out there who don’t consider what went on in Chicago to be “accomplishments”. You do read more than just what liberal media puts out, don’t you?
Snide references to my pointing out that Kilkenny’s words portray jealousy hardly make yourself credible. I didn’t say Kilkenny seemed jealous because she doesn’t share the same political beliefs, I said she seemed jealous because she made numerous references to Palin’s appearance, made derogatory references to anyone pleased with Palin, suggested she is the only one in a town of many, who is not “controlled” by Palin and also made derogatory-type remarks about Palin’s husband earning a high-income but not living like a native Alaskan. Those types of comments do indeed come off as jealousy.
It’s unfortunate you seem so blinded by your desire to find someone to hate her with you, that you can’t see that perhaps Kilkenny hates her for the wrong reasons.
This looks authentic to me. Kilkenny writes like an informed person trying to make people aware of the downside of this nationally unknown nominee Republicans want us to to vote for based on nice, fiery speech given two days ago! They have claimed has has a wonderful record as an Alaskan public servant. Palin’s record and her claims deserve scrutiny. Good for Kilkenny to be brave enough to voice her first amendment right to express her opinion. She did not express hatred for Palin. Rather, she potrays her an ambitious politician whose record is not exactly what Palin says it is. In our political system, one’s record is always fair game for debate so let the debate begin.
As for the jealousy comments, Palin is no babe. What’s to be jealous about?
Why is it that when a woman criticizes another woman, jealousy is the immediate ulterior motive? Plenty of men have criticized Palin and no one jumped up and yelled, “You’re just jealous!” It is a stupid statement. Most times when people take the time to attend every meeting that someone else chairs, there is a reason people! This person deserves the spotlight and the microscope.
Palin deserves to be accountable for the job she’s done. Absolutely. My comments centered on Kilkenny’s choice to disparage her based on her looks, how much her husband earns (and the way she worded those comments) and the fact that she more than once, does not cite sources or provide any proof but rather expects us to believe things because an elusive “someone” “told” her something disparaging was “true”.
John… if you think that’s how an “informed” person writes, then honestly…. you and I should have coffee or something because you know what? I know some really juicy stuff about Mrs. Obama… she is one kinky lady… and it’s all true because “someone” “told” me some really good stuff they saw her buy.
Anna. All the candidates deserve the spotlight and the microscope. I’m just preparing my email to all of my family and friends about Obama. Gosh… I hope no one gets too upset when I talk about how all the women are spellbound and won’t say a thing against him because whenever he’s brought up, they get these ridiculous smiles on their faces when they think about the fact that he’s an attractive and captivating guy and well… thoughts of some stereotypes come up and they just can’t help themselves.
I hope I don’t get criticized for writing that in my email, because Kilkenny wrote stuff like that and look at how many people are defending her doing that?
I’m a shoe in for some real live publicity now!
Anna, that would be the case if the letter held only FACT for criticism. However, when her looks and her high school era attitude come under attack as well that’s the difference between criticism and jealousy. Had it been a man criticizing her he wouldn’t have noted that there were “Even men who think she is a poor choice and won’t vote for her can’t quit smiling when talking about her because she is a “babe”.” So yeah, I’d say that there is a tinge of jealousy to the whole thing.
As far as the rest of it, jury is still out.
I agree, Anna. Oooh, ugly woman criticizes pretty woman, she must be jealous is ridiculous.
So, let me start by saying I have no jealousy of Palin’s looks. 34-24-34 and not too hard to look at, I’m told.
Amazingly, I can also read. And I have. There’s plenty to read about Sarah Palin in publications like Time Magazine and the Wall Street Journal.
Keep in mind that publications like TIME and WSJ have editorial guidelines that bloggers don’t have. And while the media *does* play to sensationalism to garner eyeballs, they can’t publish blatant lies, and are legally required to print corrections and retractions if they previously printed incorrect information.
With that said, here are a few examples…
1) Yes, she wanted to ban books. And when the librarian was “aghast” (the media’s word) she gave her a pink slip. Yes, that means what you think. She fired the librarian. It’s documented. (Want the date? I have that, too) But the public of Wasilla protested and the pink slip was withdrawn. So the librarian was un-fired, back to work and no books were banned. But the event happened and is documented.
2) When she fired the police chief, and went under a sussequent investigation for abuse of power, she admitted that her staff and family pressured the Police Chief to fire her sister’s ex. Apparently, the divorce was pretty ugly.
– Loyalty points as a sister… 10/10.
– Responsibility as a politician 0/10.
3) In that same investigation (above) The State Trooper’s union had lodged an ethics complaint with the attorney general’s office asking for an investigation into whether Palin or her aides tapped confidential files. In the investigation, Palin aide Frank Bailey said *he* did not see any confidential records. Nope - he got his information from Palin’s husband, Todd Palin. Yup, that’s what he said in court. Documented.
— Legal violation - 0/10
— Ethics violation- 10 /10 ?
4) [quote: Wall Street Journal]
“The biggest project that Sarah Palin undertook as mayor of this small town was an indoor sports complex….. The only catch was that the city began building before it had unchallenged title to the land. The misstep led to years of litigation and at least $1.3 million in extra costs for a small municipality with a small budget. What was to be Ms. Palin’s legacy has turned into a financial mess that continues to plague Wasilla.
5) She is about as “green” as George Bush. Yes, that’s sarcasm. She has stated that she’s not sure global warming isn’t just a part of nature’s cycle, and isn’t sure that people really affect global warming. *rolls eyes* Oh wait… and she wants to drill for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Does she not know what “wildlife refuge” means??
I could keep going, but I’ll spare y’all.
I’m a Canuck. I don’t get to vote. But I’d sure like to see your dollar get stronger than ours again.
See, I work for Americans. And I sure liked the days when $100 of your American dollars put $125 in my bank account, like in the olden days before George Bush.
It kind of sucks to put $100 American dollars in my bank account and get $95 Canadian dollars.
But if y’all vote in McCain and Palin, I guess I’m just gonna have to raise my prices, ’cause your dollar ain’t gettin’ any stronger with them two cowboys in town.
*sigh*
P.S. Oh - and fraccy - not to be a TOTAL pain in the arse, but if you really think there aren’t any men that get stupid grins around a purdy woman, I’d like to live in your world. ‘Cause in my world, all you gotta do is flash some boob or leg and they can’t even drive straight, much less think. And no, they ain’t ALL like that. But lots are.
P.S. Oh - and fraccy - not to be a TOTAL pain in the arse, but if you really think there aren’t any men that get stupid grins around a purdy woman, I’d like to live in your world. ‘Cause in my world, all you gotta do is flash some boob or leg and they can’t even drive straight, much less think. And no, they ain’t ALL like that. But lots are.
Rotflmao linda, what the heck do you think my blogs all revolve around? I think I know that better than you think… like nearly a million hits better than you think.
My point, is the pit which you and the obviously liberal-at-all-costs type thinkers, have fallen into, the not-seeming-to-be-able-to-separate-the-wheat-from-the-chaf pit. Much of Kilkenny’s comments are indeed blatantly jealous sounding and not based on fact but on her opinions. That’s fine, everyone’s entitled to opinions, but she’s sent them forth as fact… and then tried to excuse herself for not having supporting evidence, by calling herself “just a housewife.” One needs to separate the wheat from the chaf of the cases against each candidate… not just rally against everything that comes out against a certain person because of their party affiliations. That’s what I see happening.
Palin and McCain, Obama and Biden all should answer for anything proveable on their records… and they ALL have shit on their records. I challenge anyone to find someone who doesn’t. I don’t believe it can be done, because while people amass experience, they make mistakes and they do have errors in judgement… if they didn’t I’d think that a cause for concern. I prefer to judge whether someone learns from their mistakes and makes better choices and decisions as they go on, than find fault with everything they did wrong while they were learning. I wouldn’t want to be judged on the mistakes I made while I learned something… would you? There isn’t a candidate alive, who wouldn’t have some dirt to be dug up. Period.
I don’t think it’s necessary though, to mount a campaign against someone by throwing in catfight-type crappy digs because someone is attractive, popular; because their husband makes a good salary (since when was that an offense) or because they’re well-liked. Yes… for Kilkenny to liken her popularity to high school makes me want to check into Kilkenny’s own high school and find out if she’s carrying some kind of baggage that she would as an adult, have to haul that out. I’ve seen it before… remember the post I wrote about Syvette Wimberly? LOL if you think women don’t hold these stupid grudges against each other and do this kind of crap for less than “honorable” reasons.
No one is doing that regarding the male candidates. I don’t see some man who lived in the same city as Obama, making derogatory comments about his looks or virility and trying to make that a reason he shouldn’t be President. Sheesh.
It’s a sad fact linda, that women who feel threatened by another woman based on physical appearances, will ABSOLUTELY pull this kind of crap. Are you serious? Has this never happened to you? Gawd.. if it hasn’t, you’re damn lucky in life because let me tell you how much it sucks to have worked hard to get to a certain level in your company… win a promotion over another woman because you worked hard… and have her tell others you got it because you’re pretty and you gave the director a blow job.
Shit like that happens all the time… and unfortunately, it’s women who do it to each other. Women are far harder on each other than men are on women in the workplace. In the workplace, I’ve been on the receiving end and also watched other women do exactly that which you seem to think silly that I said goes on.
If you think “ugly” (used as a blanket term for all the ways women feel insecure around another woman… fill in the blank with weight, talent, skills, personality, etc. and it’s all the same) women don’t do nasty things to try bring down someone they’re jealous of, then I would really like to live in *your* world, because I’ve been on the receiving end more than once and watched it go on in front of me more often than anyone would think is real. It’s a sad fact about women… but it’s true.
Men know this. They don’t speak up about it because they don’t want our fraccin’ wrath. LOL. And we dish that out as soon as some man tries to say we do this stuff to each other. I’m a woman not afraid to speak up and say yes… women DO do this to each other and it sucks and it’s stupid.
No one ever raises themself up by bringing anothe person down… you know that’s my personal philiosophy and how I conduct myself with you, fraccy sisters and friends alike. I see no reason to not speak up when I see Kilkenny do it to Palin.
I’d do the same for Michelle Obama too, regardless of the fact that I am clearly not a liberal.
The library issue is still not a black and while issue, though every liberal I’ve heard from says it is. It seems to me that one party saw it one way and the other party saw it another way. So if Palin was found to have violated ethics in the trooper fiasco, why is there nothing like that regarding the librarian?
Lots of people were fired… and I’m sure lots of people could find a comment and then add it together with the timing of their firing and make a case for someone like Kilkenny to spread around. I just don’t think the library case is the one to be making. It’s not black and white… and I’m not wasting my time on it unless something more than two people adamantly insisting their perception of it is the right one.
I haven’t said I’d support her either yet, I reserve the right to wait until more real stuff comes out about all of them… I’m just sick of watching women have to go after another woman because of her looks and popularity. It’s so fraccing high school…. it has no place in the grown up world.
I’ll continue to object when people use her looks and her popularity as a means to discredit her.
And you know what linda?
I get my traffic from banking on the fact people want to admire boobs, sexy shoes and all things related. I do though, give men enough credit to know that while they might admire my (D cup) boobs… they will also not blindly vote for me because I have those boobs… which is what Kilkenny was trying to make people think. That’s an insult to men… an insult to women and an embarassment to herself.
And COME ON… be real. She held herself up as the ONLY person in the entire fraccing town who isn’t mesmerized or controlled in some way by Palin and therefore the only person to be believed?
Give me a fraccing break. That alone should make everyone toss her fraccing email into the recycle bin.
Carrie - I know I sound all supportive of her, but I was careful to deal with just what I see as ridiculous and over the top catty crap. I have also said that for me, the jury is still out on the other issues. I’d like to be able to hear about them and learn about them without having to endure all the remarks about her looks and how they affect things.
For flip sakes… last night one of the pop-culture shows on television were talking about how she wasn’t “stylish enough.” The MALE host thought it should be a non-issue since we don’t talk about that stuff with the male candidates but the FEMALE guests on the show insisted it was valid to discuss whether her hair or her suits were current styles…
What do you think they said was the reason behind their logic?
They said it was because women watching want to talk about that and want to critique her because of her hair or her glasses or her choice of wardrobe… so that made it ok.
Total crap if you ask me.
because let me tell you how much it sucks to have worked hard to get to a certain level in your company… win a promotion over another woman because you worked hard… and have her tell others you got it because you’re pretty and you gave the director a blow job. Shit like that happens all the time… and unfortunately, it’s women who do it to each other.
Been there, done that. I was in management at a National Retail store by 19, and sat on the Board of Directors for the biggest PreSchool at 25, remember? I had lots of people say shit like that about me.
And, you know what else? I also heard men devalue everything I just said by listening, and then saying “I’d do her…” and the rest of the boys club laughs. Men do that shit, too. PEOPLE do that shit… not just men, and not just women. Acting shitty isn’t a gender thing.
But you know what? Pointing out that Kilkenny is fat, might have been unpopular, and clearly doesn’t have a rich husband kind of borders on more of that catty shit.
Palin is putting her political abilities on the table. Therefore, those are the issues that *should be* looked at. Same with any contender.
I am not a republican. I am not a democrat. I’m a Canadian that works for American dollars and I’d sure hate to see another term of Georgie-Porgie politics south of the border. That’s what I see when I look at the McCain/Palin team.
Obama, I can’t comment on. Haven’t read enough yet.
At this point in my life, my general view is that the words politician and honesty don’t belong in the same sentence.
One thing that irks me is when I see people all “rah, rah” about a speech, without looking into that person’s political history. Talk is cheap. Actions tell the rest.
“But you know what? Pointing out that Kilkenny is fat, might have been unpopular, and clearly doesn’t have a rich husband kind of borders on more of that catty shit.”
Actually, I didn’t point any of that out. Kilkenny made an issue of Palin’s looks… claimed it was a factor in how people in the town react to her and how the people in the town make decisions about supporting her… and then Kilkenny stated she was not “angry or jealous.”
I simply placed both photos there. Tit for tat. Kilkenny put Palin’s looks on the table so shouldn’t she put her own there also? If she doesn’t want to do that, then perhaps she should, like I maintain… leave the looks of everyone off the table?
If you read what I said, I did not say Kilkenny is fat, nor did I say she clearly doesn’t have a rich husband, those are leaps you made. I pointed out that Kilkenny’s choice of making those comments shows Kilkenny’s jealousy.
I don’t see Kilkenny as fat. Sorry. You’re wrong there. She probably doesn’t weigh all that much more than I do myself, so why would I call her fat? If you see her as fat, that’s up to you. I also don’t care at all what her husband makes. Nor do I care what Palin’s husband makes… and neither should Kilkenny. THAT was my point. By Kilkenny using such things in a negative way, she is clearly showing that she is in fact, angry and jealous over something. The fact she refers to Palin’s popularity as a high school thing is what leads me to think there’s something left over from their earlier days… Psychology 101 anyone? Maybe it’s just a mom’s intuition?
So in fact, I was showing how Kilkenny’s comments are in contrast to her own claim… not being catty about her myself. It’s unfortunate that you see it that way because while you’re seeing it that way, you’re missing the very valid and valuable point I am making. If Kilkenny were to have left off most of the opinions that are so personal in nature from her letter that she claimed was only to provide people with “fact” then I’d have not taken issue with her at all.
Yes, I agree… you have had some of those work experiences I’ve talked about, but I disagree that men do the things you referred to as much as women do the things I spoke of. I have, in all of my work experiences added up, not experienced the crap you say men do to us as often as I’ve experienced/witnessed women doing dirty crap to each other. This doesn’t even stay limited to the paid workforce either. In all of the volunteer work I’ve done as well, women backstab each other more than men ever make inappropriate comments or behaviour… hands down.
Maybe it’s because the work situations you refer to were years before people took harassment seriously, and while now people are more aware of what is right and wrong in that department, nobody is taking the inappropriate ways women treat each other seriously and changing it.
You work for yourself right now, and answer to yourself; you aren’t in the outside-of-your-home-and-dealing-with-’office’-politics world right now. I am telling you… it’s for certain that women do this far more than men do those things you talked about. Men cannot afford to do those things anymore linda, because we women haul them up on charges. Women though, don’t seem to have to answer to anyone for the kind of crap I’m talking about, so it goes unchecked… and men are often not willing to say anything because we women will take a strip out of them for having the nerve to say women do this… even though women DO do this.
The thing that kills me, is that when women refuse to acknowledge the extent of it (it like you are right now)… they are really just condemning themselves to more crap!
I stand by what I said. Kilkenny made the issue of Palin’s looks and my putting the pictures up was a “good for one, good for both” thing. I’d prefer she hadn’t made the issue at all. She should’ve made her case with whatever actual and verifiable facts (so, not the ones she excuses for perhaps being inaccurate because she’s just a housewife after all) there are, and I’d not be making any of these arguments.
Wouldn’t that have been more effective on her part?
In my opinion, Kilkenny isn’t ugly, nor is she fat. It’s her actions that I find ugly… she clearly wants her day in the sun and this is how she chose to get it. Even if I end up not liking Palin at all, I will still not like the way Kilkenny went about this.
…how fitting then, that you ended your comment with “Actions tell the rest.” I agree.
And lol silly… you can’t be a republican or a democrat if you’re a Canadian, you’d be either a liberal, a conservative or a socialist… unless you didn’t vote at all.
What I see?
I see that McCain is not George Bush. I think McCain is a far superior person to George Bush and he should be allowed to be McCain and not painted as Bush. I don’t have a final opinion on Palin yet, nor Biden. I think Obama is more of the kind of socialist than he or his (campaign) people don’t want the world to know about until it’s too late. I think some of his own (campaign) people don’t even realize how much of the kind of socialistic thinking he really has because they’re too caught up in the rapture of the first black President thing.
Socialism is scary and it creates scary people who sometimes fool us until it’s too late. You should know that.
If I were an American, I’d rather elect a couple of cowboys and then make damn sure we have good boots with those prickly things to jab them when they’re out of line than elect someone who’s the kind of socialist I believe Obama is.
In terms of what’s really better for the country in the long run… it will NEVER be the socialist. It just has no place in a free country because the core of it isn’t about people being free, it’s about people being controlled.
And that’s something that Americans could learn from a Canadian who is sitting here with a fraccing hernia and will wait about 8 months from the time of injury to having surgery; or from a Canadian who watched her best friend almost lose her mind because she was told her husband has a horrible kind of cancer but has to wait more than 4 months just to be seen by someone to figure out a treatment. In those 4 months, he might die.
Americans can learn from a Canadian who understands that her province, mired in socialist thinking, sat in limbo for years as a have-not province while her neighbouring province with similar resources… prospered because they had conservative government and not a socialist one holding them back.
Americans might think it’s all none of our business because we’re Canadian… but who better to ask about whether or not Socialist and Liberal government really makes one better off or not?
And yes… politician and honesty rarely can be said in the same sentence. So all of this really then, becomes an issue of which type of government is better off for a country in the long run.
Whoops. I guess we’re back to where I left off again.
I love the way you tell it you are so unbiased I don’t get what everybody is bitchin about. Geesh! I agree with you 100% however my jury isn’t out on Palin I am totally for her. I believe the balance between her and McCain are the shot in the ass the USA needs. Yes we are hurting as a country right now but I don’t feel putting it in the hands of someone who can make a pretty speech is the answer. People hero worship him like Martin Luther King now THAT was an amazing man who worked hard to earn the respect he got. I don’t feel that by winning the vote he has become a hero. Back to the comments at hand I think you are completely fair in your perceptions because I felt the same way and would never have been able to put it as eloquently as you. MAD PROPS FRACCAS!!!
I am not surprised at any of the information revealed by Ms. Kilkenney’s e-mail, amoung other things, I question a women who would not take the time to bond with her newborn child, three days and then back to work?( sorry about the inconvience that must have caused you). Not my value system, and certainly not a good role model for so many obvious reasons
Thanks Ashley. I kind of expected a litany of people arguing with me and maybe even being mean… so the occasional kind comment is pretty neat.
Victoria - First… I myself, would stay home with my child.. that would be my choice. When I had my middle child, my husband was opening a new business. He barely made it home to get me to the hospital and after the delivery was gone and I didn’t see him for the day. Once I and baby came home, he wasn’t able to be there much at all. No one criticized him as I suspect no one would call Mr. Palin a bad role model for being back at work the next day after a child was born.
We have to remember that while we may feel that way about staying home with a baby, unless we want to hold men to that same standard… it isn’t really ok to hold women to it.
We also (at least I’m not) are not sure what steps were taken for her to bond with baby Trig so I’m not prepared to make a judgement about that. Did she bring Trig to work? I’ve known moms who had to do that. I’d also like to know what steps were taken for Mr. Palin to bond with baby Trig?
You know… it’s not like a Governor can just call in another Governor for mat leave. I’d probably want to know more before I made any big leaps there. Do we know how she felt about going back to work, or are we assuming she’s a horrible person when perhaps she was torn up about it?
You know what? I had to put off one of my own kid’s birthdays once. Someone else would call me a bad mom. Probably you would. At the time though, I needed the job I had and I had to be at work. It upset me like no one knows… to tell my child we’d have to celebrate the day on another day. So unless you’re a close confidant of Sarah Palin’s, you can’t profess to know what’s inside her and how she felt about that.
Perhaps she is cold and didn’t care? I don’t know. But I do know that to decide that without any first-hand knowledge is really wrong of you or me or anyone else. Do you think being judgemental like that is being a good role model? I’m not so sure it is. Just a thought to think about. You know… that mile in someone else’s shoes…
addendum: From celebrity-babies.com I found this: Sarah said she does not plan to take a maternity leave, but is breastfeeding, will bring her son to work with her, and plans to take some days of for his pediatrician appointments
So it’s not what we might do, but then again, we aren’t the Governor of a State. I’m sure had she taken a leave, people would call her down for that too… But bringing him to work and breastfeeding does amount to bonding. Methinks some people are going to look for anything they can. I imagine if someone is “told” she uses five squares of toilet tissue each time, someone will criticize her for using too much and not being environmental enough… and then someone else will criticize her for not using enough and potentially spreading germs. [rolls eyes]
[1] How about remarks about her being popular, or a babe? Does Kilkenny not realize that by painting men as though they have empty-headed grins because of her looks, Kilkenny herself is showing her green…
Do Kilkenny’s own looks have something to do with comments like these? Being female, I venture to say that they do. …
As a woman, it pleases me to see another woman succeed and particularly if she is good looking. It’s about time people understood that being attractive does not automatically mean one is stupid.
Thinking that beautiful women are stupid is a stereotype that research disproves.
Study #1:
Researchers investigating whether there is a beauty premium to be had in the workplace have found that those they deemed the most attractive make 12% more money than those regarded as less good-looking.
…
Reported in the Journal of Economic Psychology, University of California researchers studied three groups of subjects according to general perceptions of physical attractiveness. Their behaviour was observed and their different incomes taken into consideration.
…
“Attractive people make more money than middle attractive people, who in turn make more money than unattractive people,” declared the researchers.
“Good looks have what social scientists call the halo effect. Because someone is attractive, we assign many other positive attributes to him or her that have nothing to do with looks.”
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk
Study #2:
Good-looking, slim, tall people tend to make more money than their plain-Jane counterparts, according to a study released this month by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
After variables like education and experience are factored out, Fed researchers said the “beauty premium” exists across all occupations, and that jobs requiring more interpersonal contact have higher percentages of above-average-looking employees.
If that weren’t enough, the Fed also discovered a “plainness penalty,” punishing below-average-looks with earnings of 9 percent less an hour.
Source: http://www.money.cnn.com
Perhaps Kilkenny would have had more impact if she’d kept personal comments out — or asked a pretty woman to publish the letter.
Because what people are doing is just following the stereotype that these studies confirm. Ugly people get the crap end of the stick and pretty people get the benefit of the doubt.
No doubt Palin is the prettier of the two. Pity her political history isn’t quite as pretty as her face.
You make many, well thought out and erudite points about the Kilkenny e-mail. It does seem a bit as though there is something personal in many of the statements being made. I don’t think that this is much more than one women’s opinion of someone she clearly knows, but does not much care for.
Having said that, I think it is fair to criticize Mrs. Palin for making snide and derogatory comments about someone she clearly doesn’t know very well if at all. Her attempts at making Mr. Obama seem as though he has a messianic complex and categorize him as elitist, while devaluing his service as a “Community Organizer” when Mr. Obama could have written his ticket to any number of major law firms, is simply more of the same old name-calling, slandering, intentionally deceptive, Neo-Con play calling we have seen in this world for way too long.
The McCain campaign thinks that they can say anything about Mr. Obama, whether factual or not, and it’s fine because, after all they are the real Americans. However, any attempt at illustrating exactly who Mrs. Palin is, how she has succeeded and where she has failed is out of the bounds of decency.
Heresay is never a good source of information as you deftly point out, and yet, The conservative Blogs have intentionally misled people to believe Obama is a Muslim, anti-American, radical left-wing, no pledge taking, secret agent for al Quida.
There is still plenty of time for substantive issues and factual support for and against all the candidates. Let’s hope that we can get this information out so that we, as Americans, no longer appear to the world to be an uninformed, yellow journalism believing, extremist (left or right) bunch of morons.
If we are a Christian nation, it should be a no-brainer to take care of our sick and our poor. If we are Americans, we should have no difficulty understanding that the Constitution was written for a reason and cannot, or at least should not, be suspended as a matter of expedience when things get tough. Ben Franklin , I believe said, “Someone who will trade freedom for security, deserves neither”.
In conclusion, let me quote Bill Maher by asking, “What’s the difference between a Hockey Mom and a pit-bull? Lipstick and you can neuter a pit-bull”. Take care.
For linda -
A - ” Perhaps Kilkenny would have had more impact if she’d kept personal comments out
B -Because what people are doing is just following the stereotype that these studies confirm. Ugly people get the crap end of the stick and pretty people get the benefit of the doubt.”
I can’t speak for everyone making comments, I can only speak for myself, but I read the letter and formed my opinion before I ever saw a photo. I had to hunt to find it. When the letter first came out, there weren’t many sites with a photo to go with the story.
I choose A. It’s the whole basis of my opinion and if you notice, my comments in the post I posted are largely about how the personal opinions in the email are what shout ‘jealousy and anger’ which makes me doubt the credibility of everything else in it.
I’m going to say again, that I don’t find Kilkenny ugly. If you look at her face, she is not ugly. She looks just as young as Palin, which leads me to suspect there’s some history between the two of them that isn’t related to politics.
I think she should’ve parked her personal opinions before she wrote that mail. I also think she’s given herself away as not being a truthful person by claiming the letter was intended for family and friends. She wrote right in the letter, instructing people how to google her to verify her identity. No one would tell their family and friends to google them to verify their identity. It’s clear that she wrote the letter intending the public (and many people who don’t know her) to read it, then tried to paint a picture of having only sent to family and not intending for all of “this” to happen. Liar.
If she can’t be truthful about that…. it makes me wonder what else she’s not been truthful about.
So for me… it has nothing to do with the fact that someone prettier didn’t write the letter…. it has to do with the fact that *I* have a brain and can pick out these things that make her letter questionable. It wouldn’t matter to me if the most attractive person in the world wrote it. If it contained the same stuff… I’d be saying the same things.
Look how many people are willing to not acknowledge these very blatant things in her letter and are stating it’s the truth? People who don’t know Kilkenny are willing to overlook the blatant issues with what she’s claimed and believe her.
That doesn’t exactly jive with your stats. You’d better go find something to explain that… ’cause I can’t right now. I’m sure you’d find it quicker too.
“No doubt Palin is the prettier of the two. Pity her political history isn’t quite as pretty as her face.”
So, you have only searched for the bad things to support what Kilkenny says… and from that you’re making a judgement on her entire political history? You know, Obama has some pretty negative things in his political history too… so now what? If a candidate is eliminated because there’s something negative on their record, it’s quite likely that there would be absolutely no one left or eligible to run.
So…
How about you show how unbiased you are by looking up some of the negatives about Obama? I claim that there are negatives about all of the candidates. To quote Cal from the movie Titanic… “What to do? What to do?”
Kelly - I was thoroughly enjoying your comment until you quoted Bill Maher, and then I felt like I needed a shower. ; - )
I agree that conservatives should make sure their claims can be substantiated. So should democrats. Often, claims from both sides lean too heavily on opinion and not enough substance that can be proven.
Obama has plenty on his record to make people (who understand that extreme socialism is a frightening thing) worry. It should be shown in a more factual and less opinionated way so that others understand.
I understand how socialism seems to be a more “christian” way… a “safer” way to live, and a way that might appeal to people who feel times are tough. It is though, an empty promise that in the end only brings a bigger and deeper grief that is harder to get out of than anyone imagines.
I believe Conservatives who know and understand this are so fervent about wanting to prevent it, that they make choices about how to prevent it, that maybe aren’t the best way.
I thank you for seeing what I’ve been trying to present about the Kilkenny letter. If there were more people willing to see the good and/or the bad in both sides and then decide from there… elections wouldn’t be the slime-covered dog-fights they seem to have become.
But Bill Maher? Ick. I do not care for him.
Bill Maher was quoting Sarah Palin. She said “What’s the difference between a Hockey Mom and a pit-bull? Lipstick.” He quoted her and added…… “and you can neuter a pit-bull”.
Palin is anti-environment, pro-war, and thinks rape victims should be denied an abortion even if they are underage girls.
She promotes a policy to gun down wolves from airplanes, and even offered a $150 bounty for each left forearm hacked off and brought in when people weren’t picking them off fast enough — until the state legislature put a stop to that.
The state of Alaska is still struggling because of the 1.3 million in litigation costs of her sports complex.
That’s a scary person to have as second in command behind the oldest presidential candidate in history.
It’s really easy for people to discount Kilkenny’s letter because of the personal tone behind it. Me… I understand that. I probably sound that way when I talk about my ex. It’s hard not to when you’ve been pooped on and the pooper walks away unscathed. At that point, one needs to believe in Karma.
But I realize I’m speaking to hear myself talk and that this is quickly turning into a “Poor Palin” thread.
The good news is that Bill Maher is no different than say, Rush Limbaugh, on the other end of the political spectrum. I just thought it was a funny comment based on Mrs. Palin’s extremely pro-life positions. I no more agree with everything Bill maher says, than I do Mr. Limbaugh. I think they both take themselves way too seriously, but provide a good forum for their respective philosophies. Both are too far to the left or right.
As far as the viw that socialism is the more Christian way of living, I don’t believe that socialism as it is typically understood is a good thing at all. However, the concept that a free market system can take care offcertain fundamental societal needs without regulation is absurd. This goes back to Teddy Roosevelt, a republican, who broke up the Trusts that were exploiting men, women, and children for unlivable wages in unsafe conditions with no healthy standards(sounds a lot like our foreign trading partners in the Pacific rim, don’t you think).
I actually view Jesus from the standpoint of a social progressive as opposed to a mystical religious figure, but hey, that’s just me. I think if people are going to tout their religiosity, they should at least have some concept of the basic philosophy of that religion and, at least attempt to, adhere to it. If this were done by a literate, well informed population world-wide, our commonalities would start to be more important than our differences.
I posted this on your other site too…
Wow. I read the whole email and I too believe the woman (Anne) is quite jealous. The quote about keeping secrets — why on earth would Sarah Palin or her family tell Anne anything? I also live in a small town in Alaska and pregnancy is a very private thing, especially for an older woman carrying a special needs baby who has a “professional” job. I find people who can keep secrets (not gossip) a great quality. And, Anne going on about Sarah’s looks or Todd fishing Bristol Bay (not being their main income - of course it isn’t their main income, practically everyone fishes in another fishery or does something else, because one fishery just isn’t going to cut it!) Get real. Yes, there is quite a bit of sour grapes there on Anne’s part and it must be difficult seeing Sarah Palin go on and be SO POPULAR. I’ve read about Wasilla and their economy… and the changes are a matter of opinion on what you think is/was good for the town. Also, the comment about “she hates me” - well, lets return the favor and get her (Sarah Palin) in an email. Any person with a great job/position makes enemies. Just chalk this one up to one unhappy person in Wasilla…
Ok tell me this, why cause this ladie may or may not be speaking the truth, why does she have to be jealous, I mean really, they tried to bury Obama with trash and filth yet he is still Nominated Dems choice for president. See I mean non of us are that clean, and Gov palin is no acception, I mean really for every so called fale tale or lie on her there is some truth to the situation, I wished be caould all find out the truth and the real truth about all of our candidates but thats a dream, so if some one has knowledge let it be know, stop just assuming she is lying, cause guarentee U was not there and if you were I wonder what you would have to say then. In this election peoplereally need to let the chips fall where they may.
linda - ROFL, I know Maher was quoting Palin and added his own bit. The ick part was just having to think about him. I do not like the guy.
And you are still avoiding my challenge to you to put up some of those negative things out there that can be found about Obama… you’ve snuck in there more things you find negative about Palin.
See most of that stuff is subjective. What beliefs of hers you find negative and objectionable, someone else doesn’t. That’s why everyone gets to vote (well, you know what I mean… don’t get all technical and all just to yank my chain, ’cause I know you’re doing it and when the person knows you’re doing it, it’s not a yank anymore. LOL… and sometimes, the other person lets you do it because then they kinda chuckle because they’ve baited you into thinking you’re yanking the chain when it’s really the other person doing a kind of yanking…. oh gee… how can you tell we’re related?)
Oh… and being the oldest candidate in history just sounds all dramatic and all if one is trying to make people think he’s too old to vote for. Reagan in fact, though wasn’t the oldest candidate (since he was elected at age 69) served two terms and so adding 8 years onto that… actually held the office at an older age than McCain would be if elected… or even at the end of one full term.
Lots of bruahaha about age but in reality… not a big whoop.
C in Alaska - Yes, thanks… I replied to you there too!
Uh Uh Uh - I’m just suggesting she’s got a grudge or is jealous or something like that behind her reason because of the way she wrote it, the things she said and the fact that she wasn’t entirely truthful and THAT is a fact. I’ve pointed out a couple of self-admitted untruths in the letter, so it makes me question it all.
Unfortunately, that’s how it works. If you want to be believed, you have to be careful to actually be truthful and be able to back up what you say with something real.
As a matter of fact, media outlets do not necessarily have to prove the information they are being told/given is true. They can publish heresay, and as someone who has studied mass media law and regulation- who ever provided the comment I am referring to needs to refrain from making statements he obviously doesn’t know a thing about. It is all too convenient to pass what you believe to be the truth on as legitimate insight. You can argue they shouldn’t, but most organizations do and will-especially in blogs where there is relatively no control over what people say.
Unsubstantiated evidence is fair game. So, this goes right back to the idea the Kilkenny’s information is not 100% accurate.
Let’s be fair here, no matter what your political affiliation is. Both parties are throwing cheap shots. Lets focus on each other and not skew the points we are trying to make.
Frac brings are a legitimate point, the letter does have elements of jealousy. And there certainly are holes in the letter.
Kelly - I’ve enjoyed your comments and appreciate the even keel you’ve kept them on!
FocusNow - Agreed. It’s not hard to watch televised “unbiased” show and see that the leanings of the host or the network are absolutely governing how the information is presented, and the same goes for publications like Time, WSJ etc.
You’re also right in saying that cheap shots all around are thrown. It’s unfortunately, how elections are fought these days.
In Canada, NDP is the far left, Liberal is supposed to be the middle and Conservative is supposed to be the right. I may have already stated that I am not liberal and I most certainly do not support the far left, but there are things about Palin that already bug me. I can admit that. I don’t feel I have to blindly agree or support everything about her. I have a line my kids get all the time. I believe in shit where shit is due and credit where credit is due… it’s how I live my life and how I deal with everyone in my life. I think that’s a fair way to be.
I can’t see any fair way of dealing with Kilkenny’s letter other than to repeat:
Shit where shit is due, credit where credit is due.
I’m not sure why so many people want to overlook the shit. Shit stinks. If you don’t throw it out, it stinks up the whole house!
My problem with S Pal is the combination of her being a woman and her inexperience. If she is elected VP, and McCain is not able to complete his term and she takes his place, and due to her lack of experience, she fails miserably—it will be years before another woman will ever be considered for Pres., or VP again!!!
I appreciate Anne’s letter. We need truth about this Palin person. I was skeptical until I read the legitimate news articles about Anne. No way no how I want the McCain/Palin ticket in the White House. Am I a staunch Democrat? Nope. Used to be registered as one, but for the past 15 or so years have been a proud American who is registered to vote without party affiliation. I actually voted for Bush both times, & Clinton prior to that. (I’m a 47 y.o. married male with a 15 y.o. son and have an M.S. Ed. Someone’s going to say “why do you say that? Who the f*** cares?” Too bad I’m not an idiot unlike some people who post on the net and cannot even spell the English language) It’s interesting that McCain/Palin suddenly took up the chant of “Change” at the RNC after Obama had already crafted it. If you look online at many respectable sites you can find the truth about McCain’s & Palin’s records. Is Obama perfect? Hell No! Far from it. But there is no way I want the oldest person ever to run for president (and yes I do highly respect his service to our country) with health issues and a VP candidate that basically lies. I read many legit news sites about Palin’s record before I stumbled upon Anne Kilkenny’s letter. The M/P ticket is going to have fun fending of the media frenzy this will produce, and I’m gonna love watching it.
kelly - That’s certainly another very valid point and way to look at it. Having watched what everyone’s been saying about Bush for almost the entire 4 years though… do you think people would really think she did worse than Bush?
tooee8 - What a sad statement for your country then, that there really is, according to what you just said… no one decent to vote for.
A side note about McCain’s age though… this is what I replied earlier to linda…
“being the oldest candidate in history just sounds all dramatic and all if one is trying to make people think he’s too old to vote for. Reagan in fact, though wasn’t the oldest candidate (since he was elected at age 69) served two terms and so adding 8 years onto that… actually held the office at an older age than McCain would be if elected… or even at the end of one full term.”
I’ve read many comments to articles online (and even on our local radio station in Canada here it was discussed) that if Obama is elected, he will be an assassination target… thus making the chance that it’s really Biden who will be President.
We could go around about if McCain dies or if Obama dies until the cows come home, but what’s the point of that? For that matter.. McCain could be elected and people could be so angry about Palin that someone assassinates her. It’s all hardly what to base your vote on.
Apparently there are two Kellys in this conversation. I do think that the McCain argument about Obama’s lack of experience is, to some degree negated by the Palin pick. It is not however a completely invalid point. I made the argument about Mr. Obama’s lack of experience in the primary season when I supported Mrs. Clinton. I thought that the pick of Joe Biden, while unpopular with many Clinton supporters, shored up the experience on the Democratic ticket.
So what does McCain do? He get’s the most extremely conservative, inexperienced candidate he can find that looks good on camera wearing a dress. Had he picked any number of other qualified conservative women with a record, I could have understood that. Instead he picks a women who, by her own admission, didn’t know exactly what the Vice-President did a week before her selection.
This selection was designed purely to rally the conservative base and give the GOP ticket something it desperately lacked, sex appeal. The conservatives immediately got behind her for the same reason that they got behind George Bush, she seems just like one of them. Somewhere along the line we need to understand that the people setting the tone for the country and in fact the world, should be exceptional people not regular people. The republicans have quite successfully convinced regular people that they should vote against their own best interest because exceptional people are weird or different or smart or whatever.
In the 2000 election cycle my republican friends voted for Mr. Bush because he seemed like the kind of guy you could have a beer with. They didn’t like Mr. Gore, even though he had been a very active part of the positive things that occurred during the Clinton administration, because he was a stiff. They consciously voted for the less intelligent, less qualified, less capable, less honest candidate because they wanted a regular guy.
Look, I like most everyone I meet on some level because I choose to find what’s best in people. Even the most annoying person may be hiding some better nature and I always try to bring that out when I meet people. I assure you that I am not always successful, but it always seems worthwhile. It is always worthwhile to try to get people to see what is best in themselves, but I am also a realist. What is best in Sarah Palin is that she has a nice, folksy family that clearly care about each other. This is not a legitimate qualification to be the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State, or for that matter, press Secretary of a major Nuclear Nation in the modern world. She lacks virtually every other qualification for the job. She has been at best hit and miss at the 2 so-called executive positions she has had in Alaska. She has been sequestered from the press because the republicans are afraid to let her go out without her bodyguard, John McCain.
I hope we can look at the candidates and say, “This person is exceptional, I believe I’ll vote for them”, instead of, once again saying, ” That person seems like the kind of person I’d like to meet in a bar, I believe I’ll vote for them”.
Kelly - Uh Oh… I sure didn’t go into the admin panel to see there were two Kellys in this converstation.
However… It seems all Kellys are making sense today. You make good points too. One thing you said though, brang me back to what I just said to someone else. (Though it might’ve been in a comment at the other blog… I’m going back and forth now, lol)
I hope we can look at the candidates and say, “This person is exceptional, I believe I’ll vote for them”
If that’s the case, I fear there is no one to vote for at all.
Sad, isn’t it?
Somehow, I think we’ve done it to ourselves. The public scrutiny of a candidate over private, personal things, has gotten so bad that I can’t imagine why anyone would want to go through it. Yes, some things about a person matter, but you know… not everything. We have though, gotten to where every little thing is something we think we have a “right” to know because they’re a public personality.
For example… Clinton/Lewinsky
You know what? I really don’t care if he had sex with someone other than his wife. What I care about is the disrespect for the Office by doing what he did where he did. See… if a couple is having problems and one of them screws up (pun not intended) it’s really something that should be between them. People have emotions and feeling and sometimes they do make really awful mistakes that are actually… none of our business just because they’re a public figure. Public figures in fact, have MORE pressures on them than we do and we all know that we… the everyday man or women, screw up all the time. WE would sure hate it if a mistake we made was told to the world, no, WE want to be able to deal with it between the people involved.
So you know… I abhor that Clinton had so little respect for the Office that he did what he did in it, but I believe his infidelities, had they not happened where they did, should’ve been their business and not ours.
So really, we create the monster that is “no good people left to run for anything.” Why on earth would a good person want to be put through what we put them through.
To those that raised the age issue about McCain:
Biden is 66 on Nov. 20th. That’s only a few years younger than McCain. Biden has suffered two brain aneurysms. If people are worrying so much about McCain’s age and the possibility that he will die and Palin will be President, shouldn’t we wonder about the possibilities on the other side? A President who is (as is being discussed everywhere) a serious assassination target, and a Vice-President whose age is almost that of McCain and whose health is in question.
Hmmm.
Please just always remember to divide by 15 when it comes to the Media… Clever editing has always been an art. I wish I had more time to answer everything in Anne’s letter but alas I actually have a job.. Unlike Anne in the 12 years that I have observed her behavior. I have reread Anne’s letter and I think you should know Facts and not media hype…
First of all she is a tad twisted, she has attended every day of school with her son. From kindergarten to now, Not just volunteering (like in Kindergarten) but in the class… poor kid has never made proper peer connections cause mommy was always in class and in school all the way through k-12. I have always felt she has weird attachment issues. I am sure that she will be in the dorms with him when he goes to college…
here are a few facts about Todd’s job.. He is an Alaska Native and grew up fishing with his family and continues the tradition to this day. Yes he works on the slope but so do most of us and that affords us a bit of time off. working 7 days a week at 12 hours + a day usually gives us a 2 weeks on 2 weeks off schedule. Some work more, some even a 1 x 1 in some cases. This works very well to support the family tradition/business.
As far as being pro labor… They aren’t showing the TV clip of her with Vince Beltrami president of the AFLCIO signing the pro labor bill for Alaska. I think Anne’s quotes “•pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim that she is pro-labor/pro-union.”
I think that if you were to ask Vince Beltrami PRESIDENT OF THE AFLCIO his view may differ from Anne’s. But of course Anne is the authority on this subject as she doesn’t even have a job. And the union president and Sarah must be mistaken some how.
Here I will make this easy as I will just use Anne’s quotes in a direct cut and paste
•”a Greenie”: no”. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores Why should we have to drive at least an hour and in the DANGEROUS winter conditions to Anchorage and an hour back to shop at Wal-Mart? Why shouldn’t Wasilla residents be able to support our own economy instead of Anchorages. Why should we pump our money into another city? There are STILL NO big box stores in Wasilla! I know I live there. We are all hoping Costco comes this fall. We have heard rumors and are praying they are true. With gas prices and a 125 mile round trip it takes a huge field trip to just go shopping. The expense in time and gas is just too much.
“and disconnected parking lots.” I am not sure what disconnected parking lot she is talking about? They are all connected to a store, the only one she may be talking about may be the commuter parking lot that joins the parks high way for the share-a-ride vans and carpooling. Which is well lit and regularly patrolled. I guess if Anne ever had a job she may have used this disconnected parking lot and seen the need for it and not just bashed it. I think this helps with the greenie idea as she (Sara) promotes carpooling by giving us a safe place to park and catch the commuter bus and many share-a-ride vans.
“Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWAR”. So is 80-90% of Alaska so no shock here. We have the most clean and safe drilling practices here. Every country in the world could learn from us.
“•fiscal conservative: not by my definition!” Really, she did sell the previous Governors luxury jet on EBAY (we voted against Gov Murkowski buying it in the first place but he did it any way, and shoved it in our faces) She flies coach. She personally helped me get to Maryland when mom had her open heart surgery (in Feb) and I just happened to run into her at the Seattle airport. Let the previous governors cook go and prepares the family meals and does the shopping. Comments that the kids would really like mom to hire the governors cook back… She thought it was an unnecessary expense on the Alaskan public. Drives her self to work. No entourage, police escorts etc… She doesn’t have maids and such… Does it her self. That is just in her personal surroundings at work… She not only cuts back in government but even when it has a direct effect on her… That should tell you something. Most folks would like the Perks…
“•pro-infrastructure:” No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city
without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built
streets to early 20th century standards. Wrong again has personally directed me to whom I need to answer all of my questions and I have in the past year written 9 letters to Sarah and here are a few titles of which I have gotten responses (100% of the time) either from her or the proper official that can help me. The plans for new infrastructure are great.
2nd route to the valley
Bike Path
Gas Prices Differing from Anchorage to the Valley - Road Issue?
Jan 4th Letter to Sara and Lisa(Senator) regarding traffic safety
Jan 30 Letter to Sara and Lisa regarding traffic safety
This is just a smattering of letters I have personally written to my government officials. I have huge files of questions I have personally asked and had answered.
“•pro-tax relief:” Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on
residents - again a very sticky subject in Alaska but Sarah has always put any tax decisions in Wasilla to a vote for the public to decide. If taxes make her mad she should take it up with the voting public and not Sarah.
“•pro-small government: No.” Oversaw greatest expansion of city
government in Wasilla’s history. Maybe this would be better rephrased as, and oversaw the greatest expansion of the city and all that was required to accommodate this… Our fair city has seen a huge in flux of people trying to escape the “big city” of anchorage. Wasilla is one of the fastest growing cities in the USA. We have had to have some increase to keep up. I doubt that Sara had any thing to do to get all those people to move to “The Valley”
Thank you for your excellent critique of Anne’s letter. I will put it to good use straightening out a misguided friend.
It’s also been a treat reading your responses to the posters.
Now that I’ve found you, I certainly will be back.
Ciao!
Fracas — I’ve read the letter, I’ve read your response. I liked the letter better.
Why? First, because between all her opinions (and we can tell facts from opinions without your help, thank you), Kilkenny filled the spaces with facts. Lots of them. Whereas you filled the spaces between your opinions with … more opinions.
The bottom line is Anne Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. If the facts Kilkenny presents are true, she could be the most jealous, vindictive woman since Hera cursed Callisto and it still wouldn’t matter. If Kilkenny’s facts aren’t true, once again, Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. Disprove her facts.
Ater a more-than-1600-word (yes, I counted them) rant, you finally admit you have no idea whether what Kilkenny says is true (“I admittedly don’t know enough about Sarah Palin”), but apparently that doesn’t much bother you. After all, the whole world needs to know Anne Kilkenny is bitter and petty, and, by God!, you’re just the person to set us all straight.
Now, personally, I think Kilkenny’s letter is a mixed bag. Factually, she seems to know what she’s talking about. Many of the facts she sets forth have already been independently verified by the media, and, at least as far as I’m aware, none has been disproven.
Case in point: the librarian. The facts (apparently) are true, and are (in chronological order): a) Palin asked the librarian whether he (she?) would remove books from the library; b) the librarian refused; c) Palin fired the librarian. (Kilkenny’s assertion, on the other hand, that the librarian was fired *because* he refused to participate in censorship is hearsay and, therefore, irrelevant.)
Also irrelevant is Kilkenny’s implication that Palin was busy building parks and sports arenas when she should have been building a sweage treatment plant. That’s a political opinion, not a fact. As to the sports arena, from all accounts it’s a very popular place in Wasilla; the question of whether th money would have been better spent on sewage treatment is a question for residents of Wasilla – not people who two weeks ago had never heard of Wasilla – to decide. Anne Kilkenny (obviously) thinks so; other Wasillans (apparently) disagree. Either way, its relevance to the presidential election is zero.
However, the undisputed fact that Palin inherited a debt-free town and left it $22 miliion in the red *does* go straight to the image she’s trying to present of a fiscal conservative. Therefore, it *is* relevant to the campaign, and I’d like to see it addressed.
City administrator: I can see the Dems scoring some political points on this one: this woman claims to have enough executive experience to step into the presidency if necessary, yet she had to hire a city administrator to help her run a city of five thousand people?! However, to be fair to Palin (and why shouldn’t we be?), Kilkenny admits the city administrator was all but forced on Palin as part of a political compromise Palin didn’t want, so I’m not sure we can tar and feather Palin too much over this issue.
As to Kilkenny’s characterization of Palin as “vindictive and mean”, it would, apparently, depend on whom you ask. What Kilkenny calls “mean”, another might see as “tough”; and it’s a fact that an awful lot of folks like that in their politicos.
Good letter, NCJE Culver!
Kudos on this:
The bottom line is Anne Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. If the facts Kilkenny presents are true, she could be the most jealous, vindictive woman since Hera cursed Callisto and it still wouldn’t matter. If Kilkenny’s facts aren’t true, once again, Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. Disprove her facts.
Palin inherited a debt-free town and left it $22 miliion in the red — that’s fact and documented — and it amazes me that anyone thinks she belongs anywhere near the whitehouse.
Shutting up now… your letter said it well. Personal opinions are irrelevant… disprove the facts.
Blech… forgot to ‘close’ the italics at the end of your quote. sorry.
NCJE Culver - You start out by saying this:
Why? First, because between all her opinions (and we can tell facts from opinions without your help, thank you), Kilkenny filled the spaces with facts. Lots of them. Whereas you filled the spaces between your opinions with … more opinions.
First.. I stopped reading your comment at the end of that paragraph. I will read the rest, but am pointing out first, that if you want me to take you seriously, you should at least pay attention to what I actually wrote and discuss it based on that as opposed to create an intention you can discredit and then proceed to discredit something you’ve made up instead of something I actually wrote.
If you were out there debating, at that point, many would just guffaw at you and dismiss you as a crank.
I will go back (as a courtesy) and read the rest, but you should know this:
By the responses themselves… it is clear that not everyone can tell fact from opinion, starting with yourself.
You claim Kilkenny filled in between her opinions with facts, yet if you read her words, her “facts’ are qualified by saying “someone” told her something, and the others have been issues a disclaimer that they might not even be true but we should remember she is “only a housewife.”
Yet you jump to chastise me that she’s filled hers with facts while mine are only opinion.
Laughable… but let’s examine that.
She wrote a letter claiming to CNN “I wrote my message in the spirit of providing complete and accurate information. I’m not angry or jealous.”
So by her own admission, her letter should’ve been void of OPINION and filled with accurate FACTS, which it is not… or is at least questionable.
I on the other hand, did not claim to be writing FACT, I clearly told people I was giving my OPINION. Anyone other than those who are intent on defending the letter at all costs because they don’t like Palin is going to see that attempt as utterly foolish. Kilkenny DID claim to be writing FACT yet she filled it with OPINION… which is what I took issue with. I did not take issue with her FACTS (though if she wants people to believe they are facts she should substantiate them instead of shuffle her proverbial feet and do that whole shucks I’m just a housewife so. maybe my facts aren’t right but that’s ok thing.)
Maybe put on the “I can be objective pants” and see that fracas is basically saying Kilkenny should’ve left off the opinion and substantiated properly the facts, if she wanted to claim she was only trying to get the facts out there. If Kilkenny had qualified her letter as “this is my opinion about this women I’ve known for all this time” I would likely have never taken issue with anything. She didn’t. She said it was all about fact and then gave OPINION.
I said what I write is all about OPINION and then gave my OPINION.
And you have a problem with that?
Put on some big person pants.
moongirrl - Thanks for sharing your own personal opinions. I haven’t read through the whole thing yet… but I shall.
Robert - Thanks for the kind words. You are welcome back anytime!
- NCJE Culver -
You said: The bottom line is Anne Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. If the facts Kilkenny presents are true, she could be the most jealous, vindictive woman since Hera cursed Callisto and it still wouldn’t matter. If Kilkenny’s facts aren’t true, once again, Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. Disprove her facts.
Are you serious? Okay, I see you must be but I’m finding it hard to believe you came here expecting me or anyone half-way intelligent to take that seriously.
There is no “if her facts are right or if her facts are wrong” to discuss.
The definition of FACT:
fact [ fakt ] (plural facts)
noun
Definition:
1. something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened
2. truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something
based on fact
3. piece of information: a piece of information, e.g. a statistic or a statement of the truth
If she says she is providing FACTS, then the onus is on her to prove them. This is why when you write a piece of work and claim something to be true, you are supposed to provide citations or sources to PROVE that what you are saying is true. She did nothing of the sort. She gave OPINION and even when she was stating what we are supposed to take as FACT, she then said it might not be accurate but gosh, golly, gee… she’s just a housewife so we’re supposed to overlook that.
The onus is not on ME to disprove what she says, the onus is on HER to prove it in the first place, or be satisfied with presenting it as OPINION. She didn’t do that.
You look silly to even challenge me with that. You should be writing HER and asking her to substantiate her letter so that all these types of conversations can stop.
Ater a more-than-1600-word (yes, I counted them) rant, you finally admit you have no idea whether what Kilkenny says is true (“I admittedly don’t know enough about Sarah Palin”), but apparently that doesn’t much bother you. After all, the whole world needs to know Anne Kilkenny is bitter and petty, and, by God!, you’re just the person to set us all straight.
Rofl. I have never claimed to be stating anything more than my OPINION, and not even about Palin. My opinion was about Kilkenny giving opinion and passing it off as fact, my opinion was not about Palin directly. I’ve even stated that if all these things turn out to be true and Palin is a horrible person, I wouldn’t support her. This has never been about defending Palin, it’s been about how Kilkenny chose to do what she did.
BTW, do you realize that running my words through a counter and making that last statement in that paragraph kind of show a wee bit of a problem you have with me. Rofl again. You’ve got your underwear in a knot because I’ve posted my OPINIONS, and… holy crap… I even said I was posing my OPINIONS. How dare I do that in a free country? I should be shot (or something….) Could you call someone to come do that? I’m probably too stupid to figure out how to use the yellow pages but I see the error of my ways now. Posting my OPINIONS which I claimed to be only my OPINIONS on the internet is really probably something I shouldn’t have done. After all… it should’ve occurred to me that someone like you would come put me in my place for having my own opinions and actually daring to say them out loud. *rolls eyes*
Now, personally, I think Kilkenny’s letter is a mixed bag. Factually, she seems to know what she’s talking about. Many of the facts she sets forth have already been independently verified by the media, and, at least as far as I’m aware, none has been disproven.
Oh… wait… that sounds like an OPINION and since you’ve got such a problem with my having one, you’d better not think you can have one. Nuh, uh… tit for tat.
LOL. Gosh. I have to at least thank you for the laugh this morning.
Here you go again… blanket approval of her “facts” saing the “media” has confirmed them rather than examining them one by one. You’re just as eager to believe everything without checking… as I am to not believe anything without checking. Which approach is smarter? Oh wait.. I’m sure you’ll think yours is because after all, you don’t need anyone to help you tell facts from opinions.. Oh.. hang on. You’re believing some elusive “media” so I guess you are willing to let someone tell you the facts from the opinions. Here’s just one example I can pull out of Kilkenny’s letter in about three seconds… to show you what a blind fool you’re being.
Kilkenny (under the section of Claim vs Fact):
open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at explaining actions
Kilkenny claims as fact… uses her own personal OPINION about Palin keeping her pregnancy a secret, says that she is not good at explaining actions. Sorry… but this is Kilkenny OPINION. Others have written letters and said in their OPINION, Palin is good at explaining actions and good at the things Kilkenny thinks she is not good at. I’m ok with Kilkenny having those opinions of Palin and in the personal situations Kilkenny ahs had interactions, they may be true for Kilkenny…. but that doesn’t make them a general FACT about Palin, it makes them Kilkenny’s OPINION, just as anything of this nature said in Palin’s favour by another person is also OPINION. My beef is that Kilkenny lists these kinds of things as FACTS in the Claim vs Fact section of her letter and people like you would rather argue with me than simply ask Kilkenny to clarify what she says and cite sources a little more credible than “somebody told me” this.
Geez… even as I answer you I can’t believe you seriously wrote this stuff to me. It’s so common sense and simple I can’t believe you took issue with what my whole point was.
Case in point: the librarian. The facts (apparently) are true, and are (in chronological order): a) Palin asked the librarian whether he (she?) would remove books from the library; b) the librarian refused; c) Palin fired the librarian. (Kilkenny’s assertion, on the other hand, that the librarian was fired *because* he refused to participate in censorship is hearsay and, therefore, irrelevant.)
My point about that, is that at the time it happened, Palin was investigated and said that her reasons for asking the questions were different from what the PERCEPTION of why she asked the questions. Given there was never any specific books brought up, choosing to believe the librarian’s perception of it, or choosing to believe Palin’s perception of it leaves a person with having to basically choose to take a side based on personal feelings about each individual rather than on any real “evidence”. Yes, she fired her, but she also fired other people at the time for being vocally in support of the ousted mayor. She was looking for loyalty which is something that happens in situations like that all over the world… and in private business too. Now, I’m not saying I know what Palin’s intentions then really were, I’m saying that an objective person looks at all that and says that they really do not know what really was behind it all. The librarian may feel it was as she saw it and Palin may feel it was as she saw it. It’s one of those things. Give me some evidence that she asked to ban any actual book. If you can’t, then it’s one of those situations like with our kids… when something happens that we didn’t see and each person sees it differently…. there can be no definitive solution. So Palin’s supporters will see it Palin’s way and her detractors will see it the librarian’s way. I’m just pointing that out, not saying it either way… and you take issue with me for that, why?
Don’t you believe in “innocent until proven guilty”? Each party says the question was asked for a different reason. Without an actual request for a specific book, how can you be 100% sure that it is the librarian’s take on the question that is how the question was really meant? You can’t. You are basically taking one person’s word over the other… and Palin’s detractors will obviously choose not to take her word but the librarian. And everyone is calling THAT “proof” “evidence” and “fact”. I question why you’d all do that. Would you want people do do that if you were in a similar situation? Shouldn’t people who live in a country that proclaims “Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” put their money where their mouths are? I hope you never get convicted of anything (legally or in the court of public opinion) because people who don’t like you convince others that their opinion about something you said is actually fact and no matter what you say no one will believe you when you say you meant it in a different way. Think about that first, before you poke at me for my “opinions”.
Also irrelevant is Kilkenny’s implication that Palin was busy building parks and sports arenas when she should have been building a sweage treatment plant. That’s a political opinion, not a fact. As to the sports arena, from all accounts it’s a very popular place in Wasilla; the question of whether th money would have been better spent on sewage treatment is a question for residents of Wasilla – not people who two weeks ago had never heard of Wasilla – to decide. Anne Kilkenny (obviously) thinks so; other Wasillans (apparently) disagree. Either way, its relevance to the presidential election is zero.
EXACTLY… if you look through the letter and remove stuff like that, then remove stuff about her looks and what her husband makes and whether or not he’s a “true” Alaskan or whether or not she told her FAMILY about her pregnancy… blah blah blah… what are you left with?
I don’t flippin’ care if she wants to write 20 page letters full of all those personal opinions (hers was 6). She can do that. Opinion is her right. She sent it off telling people she wanted them to get the FACTS straight and no matter how much you want to try make fun of me for what I wrote, Kilkenny’s letter is mainly opinion misrepresented as fact and you all are freaking out at me for saying it.
However, the undisputed fact that Palin inherited a debt-free town and left it $22 miliion in the red *does* go straight to the image she’s trying to present of a fiscal conservative. Therefore, it *is* relevant to the campaign, and I’d like to see it addressed.
So how does that justify your being rude to me for presenting my OPINION about Kilkenny misrepresenting her OPINIONS as fact? Please explain that to me. I never professed to be trying to defend Palin’s record or to be disputing any facts or numbers… I just gave my opinion about Kilkenny misrepresenting her OPINION as fact.
City administrator: I can see the Dems scoring some political points on this one: this woman claims to have enough executive experience to step into the presidency if necessary, yet she had to hire a city administrator to help her run a city of five thousand people?! However, to be fair to Palin (and why shouldn’t we be?), Kilkenny admits the city administrator was all but forced on Palin as part of a political compromise Palin didn’t want, so I’m not sure we can tar and feather Palin too much over this issue.
And you can’t see that by how Kilkenny wrote the letter, she really did let us all know that the letter wasn’t all about being fair and informing people, it was about wanting her personal feelings about Palin and everything in Alaska to be known. I get that. I understand that. She went to all those meetings and she’d like to feel like her opinions count. That’s pretty understandable.
What I take issue with, is her presenting all this OPINION as fact and the fact that she out and out said there was NO ONE else in town with the guts to tell the truth. COME ON. Should we build her a church next? No one else in town… so she has to be the saviour of the world because she alone knows what Palin is like and no one else has the courage to say the truth?
Geez. All of that together is what made me deduce anger and jealousy. HAd she just put it all out there as opinion… no one would be thinking all of this about her and her motives.
As to Kilkenny’s characterization of Palin as “vindictive and mean”, it would, apparently, depend on whom you ask. What Kilkenny calls “mean”, another might see as “tough”; and it’s a fact that an awful lot of folks like that in their politicos.
So I’ve gotten to the end here and still can’t figure out why you have a problem with what I wrote.
Maybe you could make that clearer with something real instead of made up problems about my not presenting nor disputing facts. I wrote an OPINION piece. The onus to prove facts is on the person writing the piece claiming to be factual. Could you explain to me why you took issue with my having an opinion and stating it, and yet you have not told me that you have written to Kilkenny asking her to prove her facts in the first place.
- linda -
Good letter, NCJE Culver!
Kudos on this:
The bottom line is Anne Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. If the facts Kilkenny presents are true, she could be the most jealous, vindictive woman since Hera cursed Callisto and it still wouldn’t matter. If Kilkenny’s facts aren’t true, once again, Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant. Disprove her facts.
Palin inherited a debt-free town and left it $22 miliion in the red — that’s fact and documented — and it amazes me that anyone thinks she belongs anywhere near the whitehouse.
Shutting up now… your letter said it well. Personal opinions are irrelevant… disprove the facts.
You praised someone who said that Kilkenny’s motives are irrelevant? Really?
So if I, jealous of your online business because I’ve followed your career for years and don’t like you, decide to write a big ass letter full of my own opinions about you, your life, your character, etc. and make some claims about you that I don’t substantiate or else I just say “someone told me this about linda” and suddenly everyone is believing every word and saying that I am so brave for doing it… don’t you want people to know if this is happening to you because I’m just jealous and want to see you fall?
Are you going to be mad at me for not proving anything I said… or are you going to be mad at the people who believe everything I said without question?
Now then… say someone who doesn’t know either of us comes along and sees this happening and writes to say, “Hey folks… look a little closer and maybe sort out if all this about linda is really true or if this fracas person is spreading her own opinions because she’s out to get her.”
Are you going to seriously tell me you’d go to that person and tell THEM to disprove the shit that FRACAS wrote about you? At least be honest with yourself. You would not do that. You’d expect the ignorant FRACAS person to be held responsible to either prove what she’s saying or to admit it’s only her own opinion.
What you just agreed with NCJE Culver about, is that the person making the claims isn’t resposible for proving them when they say them… that it’s up to everyone else to disprove them. That’s bullshit and you know it. In school, we learn early in grade school, about citing sources and providing the verification for claims made. My 12 year old knows he has to do that when he writes something that’s being claimed to be true…. and both you and NCJE Culver (as well as many others) are excusing Kilkenny from that same obligation that a 12 year old knows they have.
I’m so surprised at you. I know you personally. I know you’re smarter than that.
There are 4 people who would like to be in the whitehouse, 2 on each side. Of those 4, if you are going to state that the town debt means she shouldn’t be in the whitehouse, then you are obligated to also see if any of the other three have a similar kind of fact in their past experiences. If they do… then they don’t belong in the whitehouse either.
You also, need to understand that that can’t be the only criteria to make such a final statement about a person.
So I have bought a house. I am in debt now. I die. My family is still in debt for the house because my life insurance didn’t quite cover the entire mortgage… they will have to still keep making payment for awhile until it is paid off. I have left my family in debt. BUT… they have a house they can live in and that provides them with something they needed. Yes, debt feels bad but sometimes debt is necessary. I’d prefer not to be in debt. I don’t use credit cards for that reason. But…am I a bad person because I left my family in debt?
You can be sure that there are poor financial decisions made on the part of the other side too. I will provide them in another post shortly. Why?
Because there is no such thing as a candidate without poor previous decisions, choices or mistakes in the past. If you rule out someone for each one, you rule out everyone and there is NO ONE to vote for.
You are also, smarter than that linda.
To make a statement that because she left debt, she shouldn’t be in the whitehouse, is to say that you can only think in simplistic terms. A fact I know not to be true, which is why I am saying you are smarter than that.
Posting the kinds of comments you have bee linda, is somethng I’ve learned over the last 12 years, is something die-hard-I-can’t-think-things-through-I-must-quote-the-party-line-liberals do.
I didn’t think you were that, so either you’ve surprised me to learn something I didn’t know about you, or you’re just provoking me by agreeing with inflammatory and not very well thought out things said by others. That comment of NCJE Culver’s was not well thought out. If my 12 year old knows better, I expect Kilkenny too also, and I expect people like you, NCJE Culver and anyone else willing to challenge me on my OPINIONS to also at least know better than my 12 year old.
Oy. I see typos. I’m not fixing them until later.
As a 67 yrs old Independent, I am thrilled that women have played a large political part in this election on both sides.
We need to pity a woman who is so full of hate and jealously that she would make herself the laughing stock of her town with her comments.
She probably does not even realize that she has let the world know what a hateful jealous person she is.
I guess no one ever told her that if you look like she does on the outside, she needs to be beautiful on the inside.
Camilla Paglia, feminist Democrat, has an interesting piece at Salon. She’s on point with some of the attacks here.
The witch-trial hysteria of the past two incendiary weeks unfortunately reveals a disturbing trend in the Democratic Party, which has worsened over the past decade. Democrats are quick to attack the religiosity of Republicans, but Democratic ideology itself seems to have become a secular substitute religion. Since when did Democrats become so judgmental and intolerant? Conservatives are demonized, with the universe polarized into a Manichaean battle of us versus them, good versus evil. Democrats are clinging to pat group opinions as if they were inflexible moral absolutes. The party is in peril if it cannot observe and listen and adapt to changing social circumstances.
…
But the one fundamental precept that Democrats must stand for is independent thought and speech. When they become baying bloodhounds of rigid dogma, Democrats have committed political suicide.
Paglia
I surmise that most people, including Linda, who criticize Palin for the mistakes made on the sports complex have never been involved in private, quasi- public or public development. Let me enlighten you on three facts. 1) 100% of all developments never go completely as planned without unexpected complications. 2) It was not the brightest decision to proceed without title. 3) (by arbitration ruling), the city appears to have paid $837,000 for the 80 acres of land plus its legal fees instead of the previously negotiated price of $126,000. Using the wsj.com $1.3 million in extra costs number, that works out about $16,000 per acre. I will explain below why I think think the Journal was wrong and the number is actually closer to $1.5 million.
First, without knowing the details of the transaction, I’m surprised the city’s law firm and or real estate broker, if there was one, wasn’t sued by the city for dropping the ball. They could have had a steal of a deal for the residents of Wasilla.
Someone made some amateur mistakes that are more typical in small town developments, especially when attorneys, brokers and officials that are not too savvy or lack experience in large real estate development deals. . (Before you claim that I’m rekindling the rural/ urban culture wars, know that I live in a town of 3,000.) Instead of getting a steal, the city got a large parcel of land for the relatively low price of $10, 500 per acre. The Wall Street Journal cites the cost of $1.3 million. Actually, according to the Anchorage Daily News (see http://www.adn.com/matsu/story/474934.html), the Journal didn’t cite the fact that the court also ordered the city pay Mr. Lundgren’s $315,000 in legal fees. That would take the number, according to the AND, closer to $1.5 million or $19,000 per acre. Mr. Lundgren valued the land at $2.4 million and later claimed it was worth $5 million, or $62,500 per acre. It turns out Mr. Lundgren had plans to develop the land as a business/ industrial park. Who is to say that the city couldn’t use some of that land to build one later? From my perspective, it appears that Palin and the city obtained the land at a reasonable cost and built a well-utilized sports complex and potentially can use the land to help create more jobs, tax revenue and development profits for the city. I’d like to see if Linda would be able to buy 80 acres of land for 19k per acre within 5 miles of her house.
I don’t abhor the questioning of Ms. Palin’s history as a mayor. The scrutiny is a healthy part of this process. It looks like some mistakes were made, but that is the development game. I’ve made several mistakes that have cost me tens of thousands of dollars, but public officials should be held to a high level of scrutiny on their use of tax dollars. All public officials should be held accountable for their mistakes, but there does not appear to be any egregious error nor act of malfeasance in this case.
“To the man with the hammer, the world is a nail.”- Charlie Munger
Fracas - I have enjoyed reading through this - made my slow work at night a tad less boring.
moongirrl - great! You should get your 15 minutes of fame to discount Anne. From your comments, it appears that Fracas’ original notion that Anne was jealous was right on target. Anne sounds like the neighborhood busybody who doesn’t quite get facts straight but tells everyone as though it is the real truth.
I don’t have time to read all the responsses now so maybe this was mentioned. I indeed googled Ms. Kilkenny - the first article listed says she is a registered DEMOCRAT - need I read or say more about her reasons for the letter.
Thanks for your responses and printing the letter from Butch King!
Perhaps there was a comment above about this, if so I apologize for duplication. In regards to the whole book banning issue, I get the sense that SP was inquiring about the possibility to remove books that she found objectionable, presumably ones with porn or something else quite hateful. Personally, I dont think rubbish like that belongs in a public library. Where is it written that such material has to be in a library anyway. I fully appreciate our right of free speech, but restricting the content of a library is not restricting free speech! So to be clear, it seems that questioning what is / is not in the library is a perfectly ok thing to do (IMHO). All the talk of “book burning” is such a joke! FYI, I am a conservative, who is trying to find the truth before I vote.
Bihea, Roberto, Jim, Bob & Sherry - My goodness, that felt like I was part of a Waltons show ending for a moment there. Thanks for your comments. I’d run out of steam a bit there, too many hours keeping up with comments at multiple blogs, but your opinions are welcome here always.
Ron - You raise an interesting point, one I think I might like to pursue a bit. Thanks for your input as well!
[My Internet connection's been down for the past ten days. I probably shouldn't even bother replying.]
Me: Whereas you filled the spaces between your opinions with … more opinions.
Fracas: I have never claimed to be stating anything more than my OPINION, and not even about Palin.
Me (now): So you’ve taken me to task for what, exactly? Calling your rant nothing but opinion? Or using the word “rant”?
Fracas: The definition of FACT: … 1. something known to be true…. A piece of information.
Me (earlier): the librarian…. a) Palin asked the librarian whether he (she?) would remove books from the library; b) the librarian refused; c) Palin fired the librarian.
Me (now). These are *facts* under any or all of the three definitions you yourself provided. They were supplied by Kilkenny. Other facts supplied in Kilkenny’s letter: Palin was mayor of Wasilla, a town of ca. 5,000. She served two terms from 1996-2002. As mayor, Palin championed the building of a sports arena, which was eventually built on land to which the town did not, at the time, have clear title. Palin’s administration left Wasilla $22 million in debt. She hired a city administrator to handle certain details of running the city. She survived a recall attempt. She’s served as governor for less than two years. The population of Alaska is about 670,000. Sarah is an avid hunter. Todd Palin works for BP on the north slopes. I could go on. Contrary to your assertion, none of Kilkenny’s presentation of those facts starts with “someone told me”. And even if they did, unless you’re going to deny, e.g., that Palin was mayor of Wasilla, then Kilkenny’s assertion to that effect stands as a fact regardless of any qualifications she might attach.
Me (earlier): you finally admit you have no idea whether what Kilkenny says is true (“I admittedly don’t know enough about Sarah Palin”)
Fracas: My opinion was about Kilkenny giving opinion and passing it off as fact, my opinion was not about Palin directly.
Me (now): Exactly. Reread my sentence. Now go study up on parentheses. Your words (about Palin) are the evidence I offer to support my point, which is NOT that you were expressing an opinion about Palin, but that you admit you don’t know whether Kilkenny’s facts (under whichever of your three definitions you’d like) are true. If I’ve misinterpreted your words, correct my interpretation. As, for example, I’m doing with your misread of mine.
Fracas: You’ve got your underwear in a knot because I’ve posted my OPINIONS
Me (now): Not at all. Rather because, despite having access to a dictionary, you seem to have difficulty distinguishing fact from opinion. Go back to my paragraph starting with “These are *facts*…” and tell me with a straight face that any of the “pieces of information” (your 3rd definition of “fact”) I restated from Kilkenny’s letter are simply her opinion. They are facts. They are presented in Kilkenny’s letter. Therefore, Kilkenny’s letter presents facts.
Fracas: She wrote a letter claiming to CNN “I wrote my message in the spirit of providing complete and accurate information. I’m not angry or jealous.” So by her own admission, her letter should’ve been void of OPINION and filled with accurate FACTS.
Me (now): Kilkenny claims she is providing “complete and accurate information”. She has never claimed to be providing *only* information. Nothing in her claim (at least as you’ve cited it) precludes her from including personal opinion along with that information.
Fracas: If she says she is providing FACTS, then the onus is on her to prove them. This is why when you write a piece of work and claim something to be true, you are supposed to provide citations or sources to PROVE that what you are saying is true.
Me (now): Ridiculous. Are you asserting that Kilkenny is not allowed to say, “Trig is her baby” unless she attaches a digitized scan of his birth certificate? Or claim as fact that Todd works for BP unless she provides copies of his employment contract? Or that she has to *prove* that Palin is governor of Alaska before you’ll admit it’s a fact? If I say, “The sun rises in the east”, I’m required to provide citations from Carl Sagan? If I state that I ate pizza for lunch yesterday, do I have to show you the receipt? Or is it just my opinion that I ate pizza? Your first definition of “fact” is “something that can be shown to be true”. You seem to want it to say “shown by the claimant”, but it doesn’t.
Fracas: the onus is on HER to prove it in the first place, or be satisfied with presenting it as OPINION.
Me (now): Here’s the crux of the problem. You *seem*, based on statements such as the above, to be suggesting that unless properly documented by Kilkenny herself, any claim Kilkenny makes must be labeled “opinion”. That, for example, it’s just Kilkenny’s *opinion* that Palin fired Wasilla’s police chief simply because she didn’t attach a newspaper clipping. What you don’t do is demonstrate how a statement such as “Palin was chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission” fails any of the three tests of “fact” you provide, Kilkenny’s own lack of documentation notwithstanding.
As I read you, you *seem* to be trying to reduce Kilkenny’s letter in its entirety to the level of opinion based on three criteria: first, it contains a lot of opinion (therefore it must *all* be opinion?); second, you think Kilkenny is writing out of jealousy or anger (yet, neither Kilkenny’s motivations nor your opinion of her motivations bears any relevance to the truth of the information she presents); and, third, Kilkenny doesn’t provide documentation for her claims (yet none of the definitions of “fact” you provide requires the claimant to document the claim). If (under your first definition of fact), it “can be shown to be true” (note the passive voice mode) that Palin fired her city administrator, then that’s fact even if Kilkenny didn’t document it herself.
NCJE Culver
NCJE Culver - You can come back again three weeks from now after everyone has moved on again and clip out another batch of assorted bits and it won’t change the main problem I have with your reply.
I took issue with SOME of what Kilkenny said, and made it clear right from the start, what I had issue with. You showed up and made a fuss because I took issue with her opinions. I took you to task for that.
Period.
Fracas — You can come back again three weeks from now after everyone has moved on again
Me (now): Perhaps I will. But until then, here’s a little something just to make sure I stay on your shit list
Your entire piece dealt neither with Kilkenny’s facts nor even her opinions, but simply accused her — based on a whole lotta reading between the lines (look up “eisogesis”) — of motives she specifically denied having. Then, having fairly well shot the mesenger, you proceed to dismiss the whole letter as a “load of shit based on someone who is blatantly jealous and out to get her”. Posts like yours are the reason logicians invented the phrase argumentum ad hominem. Finally, you hide behind, “Hey, I’m entitled to my opinion”. Hey, sure, ‘course you are. But when you go blogging it to the world you have to expect to get called on it.
NCJE Culver
NCJE Culver - I’d like to thank you for one thing at least. Your blatantly stupid sentences save me a lot of copy/pasting time in showing that all you seem to be interested in is having an issue withme.
My post took issue with certain portions of her letter. In case you don’t understand… I’ll clarify for you that when someone uses italics, or a different font color, etc. to show that part they’re taking issue with, that generally means they’re taking issue with the highlighted part. It seems you’d like to turn this into something else, because that makes it easier to keep up the “lets make this about fracas instead of Kilkenny” game, but it just makes you look stupid. I took issue with PARTS of what she said. Get over yourself.
And finally… an opinion is an opinion. People “get called on” stuff when they present their opinions as facts. I never did that, so “calling me on” my opinion is again… stupid. There is one person who did present some opinions as fact though… and should be “called on it” so perhaps you should focus on that person.
Oh wait…
That would be Kilkenny.
Bwahahahaha.
It sounds to me like Kilkenny has some teenage angst issues with Palin since way back in High School. Maybe Palin was prettier and more popular and Kilkenny was not. Maybe Palin got the guy; who knows. Yes, I would say deep down inside there is a jealousy issue.